John B. Baldwin sworn and examined by Mr. Howard:

Question. You are now speaker of the Virginia house of delegates?
         Answer. I am.
         Question. Are you a native of Virginia?
         Answer. I am.
         Question. Have you resided in Virginia during the war?
         Answer. Yes, sir; I have resided all my life in Staunton, Augusta county.
         Question. I think you were an original Union man?
         Answer. I was; the most thorough-going I ever knew.
         Question. Were you a member of the so-called secession convention in Virginia?
         Answer. I was.
         Question. Did you attend all its sittings?
         Answer. I did.
         Question. Open as well as secret?
         Answer. I did attend its sessions, except after the ordinance of secession had passed; I was withdrawn by other duties a good deal from the session; but I was kept advised, and aware substantially of all that passed.
         Question. Did you sign that ordinance?
         Answer. I did.
         Question. Can you tell what has become of it, or where it is now deposited?
         Answer. I have understood that it is in the city of Washington, in the possession of government, having been taken when the Union troops entered Richmond.
         Question. Did you make a journey to Washington before the firing on Fort Sumter?
         Answer. I did. I came here on the night of the 3d of April, 1861; I was here on the 4th day of April, 1861.
         Question. Did you have an interview with President Lincoln?
         Answer. I did have a private interview with him, lasting perhaps an hour.
         Question. Do you feel at liberty to state what transpired at that interview?
         Answer. I do sir; I know of no reason why I should not.
         Question. Have the goodness to state it.
         Answer. On the 3d of April, 1861, I was in the convention. I was called out by Judge Summers, a member of the convention, who informed me that there was a messenger in Richmond, sent by Mr. Seward, asking him (Summers) to come to Washington, as the President wanted to have an interview with him, and stating that if for any reason he was unable to come, he would be glad if the Union men of the convention would select and send on some communication with them. Mr. Summers told me that he and a number of other members of the convention, Union men (calling their names over), had concurred in the opinion that I was the proper man to go, and that he wanted me immediately to get ready and return with the special messenger. I consented to come. A Mr. Allen B. Magruder, who was at that time a lawyer in the city of Washington, turned out to be the messenger. We came to Washington, and arrived here about breakfast time. I went to Mr. Magruder's house. About 10 or 11 o'clock we called at the Department of State, and I was introduced to Mr. Seward. Mr. Magruder informed him that I was the gentleman selected by the members of the Virginia convention — the Union men — in accordance with his request, and that I came indorsed by them as a person authorized to speak their sentiments. Mr. Seward said he would not anticipate at all what the President desired to say to me, but would take me immediately to his house. We went to the President's house, and I was taken to the audience chamber. The President was engaged for some time; and at last Mr. Seward, when the President became disengaged, took me up and introduced me to him in a whisper, indicating, as I thought, that it was a perfectly confidential affair. As nearly as I can recollect, the language he used was, "Mr. Baldwin, of the Virginia convention." Mr. Lincoln received me very cordially, and almost immediately arose and said that he desired to have some private conversation with me; he started through into the back room, opening into the other room; but on getting in there, we found two gentlemen sitting there engaged in writing, and he seemed to think that that would not do, and passed across the hall into a corresponding small room opposite, and through that into a large front room — immediately corresponding with the private audience hall — in which there was a bed; he locked the door, and stepping around into a space behind the bed, drew up two chairs, and asked me to take a seat. Mr. Seward did not go in with us.
         As I was about sitting down, said he, "Mr. Baldwin, I am afraid you have come too late."
         "Too late for what?" said I.
         "Said he, "I am afraid you have come too late; I wish you could have been here three or four days ago."
         "Why," said I, "Mr. President, allow me to say I do not understand your remark; you sent a special messenger to Richmond— "
         Question. You got the request to Mr. Summers on the 3d of April?
         Answer. Yes, sir.
         Question. And you started—
         Answer. Within three hours.
         Question. And you arrived on the morning of the 4th?
         Answer. Yes; and my interview with Mr. Lincoln was about 11 o'clock that day. Said I, "I do not understand you; you sent a special messenger to Richmond, who arrived there yesterday; I returned with him by the shortest and most expeditious mode of travel known; it was physically impossible that I or any one else, answering to your summons, could have got here sooner than I have arrived; I do not understand what you mean by saying that I have come too late."
         Said he, "Why do you not all adjourn the Virginia convention?
         Said I, "Adjourn it! How? Do you mean sine die?"
         "Yes," said he, "sine die; why do you not adjourn it; it is a standing menace to me, which embarrasses me very much."
         Of course you will understand that I do not pretend to recollect the language at all, but this is about the substance of it. Said I, "Sir, I am very much surprised to hear you express that opinion; the Virginia convention is in the hands of Union men; we have in it a clear and controlling majority of nearly three to one; we are controlling it for conservative results; we can do it with perfect certainty, if you will uphold our hands by a conservative policy here. I do not understand why you want a body thus in the hands of Union men to be dispersed, or why you should look upon their sessions as in any respect a menace to you; we regard ourselves as co-operating with you in the objects which you express to seek; besides," said I, "I would call your attention to this view: If we were to adjourn that convention sine die, leaving these question unsettled in the midst of all the trouble that is on us, it would place the Union men of Virginia in the attitude of confessing an inability to meet the occasion; the result would be, that another convention would be called as soon as legislation could be put through for the purpose.
         Question. Was the legislature of Virginia then in session in the same city, Richmond?
         Answer. Yes, sir; that is my impression. Said I, "As soon as the necessary legislation can be gotten through, another convention would be called, and the Union men of Virginia could not, with a proper self-respect, offer themselves as members of that convention, having had the full control of one, and having adjourned without having brought about any sort of settlement of the troubles upon us. The result would be that the next convention would be exclusively under the control of secessionists, and that an ordinance of secession would be passed in less than six weeks.
         "Now," said I, "Sir, it seems to me that our true policy is to hold the position that we have, and for you to uphold our hands by a conservative, conciliatory, national course. We can control the matter, and will control it if you help us. And, sir, it is but right for me to say another thing to you, that the Union men of Virginia, of whom I am one, would not be willing to adjourn that convention until we either effect some settlement of this matter or ascertain that it cannot be done. As an original proposition, the Union men of Virginia did not desire amendments to the Constitution of the United States; we were perfectly satisfied with the constitutional guarantees that we had, and thought our rights and interests perfectly safe. But circumstances have changed; seven States of the south, the cotton States, have withdrawn from us and have left us in an extremely altered condition in reference to the safe-guards of the Constitution. As things stand now, we are helpless in the hands of the north. The balance of power which we had before for our protection against constitutional amendment is gone. And we think now that we of the border States who have adhered to you against all the obligations of association and sympathy with the southern States have a claim on the States of the north which is of a high and very peculiar character. You all say that you do not mean to injure us in our peculiar rights. If you are in earnest about it there can be no objection to your saying so in such an authentic form as will give us the force of constitutional protection. And we think you ought to do it, not grudgingly, not reluctantly, but in such a way as that it would be a fitting recognition of our fidelity in standing by you under all circumstances — fully, and generously, and promptly. If you will do it in accordance with what we regard as due to our position, it will give us a stand-point from which we can bring back the seceded States."
         I cannot follow the conversation through; but he asked me the question, "What is your plan?"
         Said I, "Mr. President, if I had the control of your thumb and forefinger five minutes I could settle the whole question."
         "Well," said he, "that would seem to be a simple process."
         Said I, "I can settle it as surely as that there is a God in heaven, if you just give me the control of your thumb and forefinger for five minutes. To let you understand how earnestly I believe it, as God is my judge, if I could get the control of that thumb and forefinger for five minutes, I would be willing, unless my weak flesh would fail me, that you should take me out within the next five minutes and knock me on the head on Pennsylvania avenue."
         "Well," said he, "what is your plan?"
         Said I, "Sir, if I were in your place I would issue a proclamation to the American people, somewhat after this style: I would state the fact that you had become President of the United States as the result of a partisan struggle partaking of more bitterness than had usually marked such struggle; that, in the progress of that struggle, there had naturally arisen a great deal of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the motives and intentions of both sides; that you had no doubt you had been represented, and to a large extent believed, to be inimical to the institutions and interests and rights of a large portion of the United States, but that, however, you might, in the midst of a partisan struggle, have been more or less (as all men) excited at times, occupying the position of President of the United States, you had determined to take your stand on the broad platform of the general Constitution, and to do equal and exact justice to all, without regard to party or section; and that, recognizing the fact without admitting the right, but protesting against the right, that seven States had undertaken to withdraw themselves from the Union, you had determined to appeal to the American people to settle the question in the spirit in which the Constitution was made — American fashion — by consulting the people of the United States and urge upon them to come together and settle this thing. And in order to prevent the possibility of any collision or clash of arms interfering with this effort at a pacific settlement, I would declare the purpose (not in any admission of want of right at all, but with a distinct protest of the right, to place the forces of the United States wherever in her territory you choose) to withdraw the forces from Sumter and Pickens, declaring that it was done for the sake of peace, in effort to settle this thing; and that you were determined, if the seceded States chose to make a collision, that they should come clear out of their way and do it.
         "Sir," said I, "if you take that position there is national feeling enough in the seceded States themselves and all over the country to rally to your support, and you would gather more friends than any man in the country has ever had."
         He said something or other, I do not recollect what, but it created the impression upon me that he was looking with some apprehension to the idea that his friends would not be pleased with such a step, and I said to him, "Mr. President, for every one of your friends whom you would lose by such a policy you would gain ten who would rally to you and to the national standard of peace and Union."
         Said he rather impatiently, "That is not what I am thinking about. If I could be satisfied that I am right, and that I do what is right, I do not care whether people stand by me or not."
         Said I, "Sir, I beg your pardon, for I only know of you as a politician, a successful politician; and possibly I have fallen into the error of addressing you by the motives which are generally potent with politicians, the motive of gaining friends. I thank you that you have recalled to me the higher and better motive of being right; and I assure you that, from now on, I will address you only by the motives that ought to influence a gentleman."
         Question. You drew a distinction between a politician and a gentleman?
         Answer. Yes, sir; he laughed a little at that. He said something about the withdrawal of the troops from Sumter on the ground of military necessity.
         Said I, "That will never do, under heaven. You have been President a month to-day, and if you intended to hold that position you ought to have strengthened it, so as to make it impregnable. To hold it in the present condition of force there is an invitation to assault. Go upon higher ground than that. The better ground than that is to make a concession of an asserted right in the interest of peace."
         "Well," said he, "what about the revenue? What would I do about the collection of duties?"
         Said I, "Sir, how much do you expect to collect in a year?"
         Said he, "Fifty or sixty millions."
         "Why, sir," said I, "four times sixty is two hundred and forty. Say $250,000,000 would be the revenue of your term of the presidency; what is that but a drop in the bucket compared with the cost of such a war as we are threatened with? Let it all go, if necessary; but I do not believe that it will be necessary, because I believe that you can settle it on the basis I suggest."
         He said something or other about feeding the troops at Sumter. I told him that would not do. Said I, "You know perfectly well that the people of Charleston have been feeding them already. That is not what they are at. They are asserting a right. They will feed the troops, and fight them while they are feeding them. They are after the assertion of a right. Now, the only way that you can manage them is to withdraw from the means of making a blow until time for reflection, time for influence which can be brought to bear, can be gained, and settle the matter. If you do not take this course, if there is a gun fired at Sumter -- I do not care on which side it is fired -- the thing is gone."
         "Oh," said he, "sir, that is impossible."
         Said I, "Sir, if there is a gun fired at Fort Sumter, as sure as there is a God in heaven the thing is gone. Virginia herself, strong as the Union majority in the convention is now, will be out in forty-eight hours."
         "Oh," said he, "sir, that is impossible."
         Said I, "Mr. President, I did not come here to argue with you; I am here as a witness. I know the sentiments of the people of Virginia, and you do not. I understand that I was to come here to give you information of the sentiments of the people, and especially of the sentiments of the Union men of the convention. I wish to know before we go any further in this matter, for it is of too grave importance to have any doubt of it, whether I am accredited to you in such a way as that what I tell you is worthy of credence."
         Said he, "You come to me introduced as a gentleman of high standing and talent in your State."
         Said I, "That is not the point I am on. Do I come to you vouched for as an honest man, who will tell you the truth?"
         Said he, "You do."
         "Then," said I, "sir, I tell you, before God and man, that if there is a gun fired at Sumter this thing is gone. And I wish to say to you, Mr. President, with all the solemnity that I can possibly summon, that if you intend to do anything to settle this matter you must do it promptly. I think another fortnight will be too late. You have the power now to settle it. You have the choice to make, and you have got to make it very soon. You have, I believe, the power to place yourself up by the side of Washington himself, as the savior of your country, or, by taking a different course of policy, to send down your name on the page of history notorious forever as a man so odious to the American people that, rather than submit to his domination, they would overthrow the best government that God ever allowed to exist. You have the choice to make, and you have, in my judgment, no more than a fortnight to make it in."
         That is about as much as I can gather out of the conversation now. I went to Alexandria that night, where I had telegraphed an acceptance of an invitation to make a Union speech, and made a speech to a large audience, which, I believe, was the last Union speech made in Virginia before the war; and I went onto to Richmond and reported to these gentlemen.
         Question. You received from Mr. Lincoln no letter or memorandum in writing?
         Answer. Nothing whatever.
         Question. No pledge? No undertaking?
         Answer. No pledge, no undertaking; no offer; no promise of any sort. I went back to Mr. Seward's from the President's house that afternoon and had a long talk with him. I found Mr. Seward extremely earnest, as far as mortal man could judge from his manifestations, in the desire to settle the matter. He seemed to have a shrinking from the idea of a clash of arms, and the impression that he made upon me was, that he thought the days of philosophic statesmanship about to give way to the mailed glove of the warrior, and that he was earnestly engaged in the effort to secure peace and union, as the means of averting the military era which he thought he saw dawning upon the country. I had a good deal of interesting conversation with him that evening. I was about to state that I have reason to believe that Mr. Lincoln himself has given an account of this conversation, which has been understood — but, I am sure, misunderstood — by the persons to whom he talked, as giving the representation of it that he had offered to me, that if the Virginia convention would adjourn sine die he would withdraw the troops from Sumter and Pickens. I am as clear in my recollection as it is possible to be under the circumstances that he made no such suggestion, as I understood it, and said nothing from which I could infer it, for I was so earnest and so excited — the matter involving what I thought would give a promise of settlement to the contrary — that I am sure no opening of that sort (although I would not have thought it a practicable scheme), no overture of any sort could have escaped me. I am sure that I would have made it the foundation, if not of direct negotiation, at least of temporizing, in connexion with others. But I have reason to believe that persons have derived that impression from conversation with Mr. Lincoln. Whether Mr. Lincoln intended to convey that impression to them or not, of course I have no means of judging.
         Question. Did Mr. Seward send by you any letter or memorandum in writing?
         Answer. None whatever -- no letter or memorandum in writing, nor any message to anybody, except his respects and compliments to Judge Summers.
         Question. One object of your visit to the President was to obtain from him some assurance that he would take some step in the interest of peace, or to prevent a collision of arms?
         Answer. No, sir. That was one of the objects of the interview; but my visit there was at the instance of the President himself, who, without at all indicating the purpose of conference, expressed a desire to have a conference with some gentleman who would be a recognized exponent of the Union sentiment in the Virginia convention.
         Question. You entertained the hope, at that interview, of getting from him some assurance, some encouragement, by which the collision of arms might be prevented?
         Answer. That was my object and purpose earnestly.
         Question. Was it not your main object and purpose?
         Answer. It was the only object that I had. The object I had in going on was to meet what I regarded, and what our friends in the convention regarded, as an overture to what we had long desired — an understanding with Mr. Lincoln. We thought that if we could get into communication with him, and could convey to him a clear and honest exposition of the sentiments prevailing in Virginia, we could influence his policy in such a way as to enable us to bring about a settlement of the affair. At the time I was here I saw, and was introduced to, in the President's room, a number of governors of States. It was at the time the nine governors had the talk here with the President — the time when there was an immense outside pressure brought to bear upon the President. We thought in Virginia that if we could only present fairly to the mind of Mr. Lincoln the necessities of our situation, the difficulties with which we were surrounded, and the prospect of success on the line of policy which we could suggest, that we could accomplish something towards settling the question. I came on to Washington, not with any defined purpose at all, but with the general purpose of trying to establish a good understanding with him, and inducing him, as far as possible, to take the views which universally prevailed among Union men in the Richmond convention.